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	<title>Comments on: Becoming the Teachers We Didn&#8217;t Have</title>
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	<link>http://www.roughtheory.org/content/becoming-the-teachers-we-didnt-have/</link>
	<description>theory in the rough</description>
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		<title>By: N Pepperell</title>
		<link>http://www.roughtheory.org/content/becoming-the-teachers-we-didnt-have/comment-page-1/#comment-356</link>
		<dc:creator>N Pepperell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Oct 2006 07:36:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/content/becoming-the-teachers-we-didnt-have/#comment-356</guid>
		<description>orange. - Thank you for that delightful idea - I should have thought of this already, as I have actually done this in the past, in programs designed for much younger students.  I had obviously somehow categorised that technique in some part of my brain that doesn&#039;t fire when I think of university teaching...  ;-P

There are some potential problems, though, in terms of student anxiety - it seems to make people worry when I comment a lot; the actual mark at the moment calms some of this worry down.  But it&#039;s a concept I&#039;ll play around with...

On your experience of people trying to give everyone the same grade, etc.:  I&#039;ve seen things like this, as well.  I&#039;ve always wondered whether this approach might have something to do with a sort of fundamental confusion over terms within the psychological literature, where a literature on the problems that can arise when someone fails to develop an adequate &quot;sense of self&quot;, has somehow become confused with the more popular concept of whether someone has developed a positive self-feeling, or self esteem...  

Failure to develop a sense of self - to distinguish between self and others, to form object relations, etc. - would certainly be likely to have terrible psychological consequences.  This doesn&#039;t really have anything to do with self-esteem, however:  one can have a strong sense of self, and low self-esteem, etc.

So I suspect the pedagogical strategy may be a response to a misplaced fear - but I&#039;ll admit I&#039;ve never tracked back to make sure.  Whatever the historical origins, my understanding is that, empirically, the case for marking everyone equally, etc., is quite weak...  And, in any event, I&#039;d think that demonstrating to a student that they can do something quite difficult, even after initial failed attempts, would boost &quot;self esteem&quot; more than a fake mark...

Apologies if this is confusing - I&#039;ve had to be something of a sleep minimalist this week...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>orange. &#8211; Thank you for that delightful idea &#8211; I should have thought of this already, as I have actually done this in the past, in programs designed for much younger students.  I had obviously somehow categorised that technique in some part of my brain that doesn&#8217;t fire when I think of university teaching&#8230;  ;-P</p>
<p>There are some potential problems, though, in terms of student anxiety &#8211; it seems to make people worry when I comment a lot; the actual mark at the moment calms some of this worry down.  But it&#8217;s a concept I&#8217;ll play around with&#8230;</p>
<p>On your experience of people trying to give everyone the same grade, etc.:  I&#8217;ve seen things like this, as well.  I&#8217;ve always wondered whether this approach might have something to do with a sort of fundamental confusion over terms within the psychological literature, where a literature on the problems that can arise when someone fails to develop an adequate &#8220;sense of self&#8221;, has somehow become confused with the more popular concept of whether someone has developed a positive self-feeling, or self esteem&#8230;  </p>
<p>Failure to develop a sense of self &#8211; to distinguish between self and others, to form object relations, etc. &#8211; would certainly be likely to have terrible psychological consequences.  This doesn&#8217;t really have anything to do with self-esteem, however:  one can have a strong sense of self, and low self-esteem, etc.</p>
<p>So I suspect the pedagogical strategy may be a response to a misplaced fear &#8211; but I&#8217;ll admit I&#8217;ve never tracked back to make sure.  Whatever the historical origins, my understanding is that, empirically, the case for marking everyone equally, etc., is quite weak&#8230;  And, in any event, I&#8217;d think that demonstrating to a student that they can do something quite difficult, even after initial failed attempts, would boost &#8220;self esteem&#8221; more than a fake mark&#8230;</p>
<p>Apologies if this is confusing &#8211; I&#8217;ve had to be something of a sleep minimalist this week&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: orange.</title>
		<link>http://www.roughtheory.org/content/becoming-the-teachers-we-didnt-have/comment-page-1/#comment-355</link>
		<dc:creator>orange.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Oct 2006 10:58:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/content/becoming-the-teachers-we-didnt-have/#comment-355</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;.. getting people to read the comments even when they&#039;re satisfied with their mark?&quot;&lt;/i&gt; 

This--in theory--is easy. Deliver your comment separately first, without the grade you have given.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;.. getting people to read the comments even when they&#8217;re satisfied with their mark?&#8221;</i> </p>
<p>This&#8211;in theory&#8211;is easy. Deliver your comment separately first, without the grade you have given.</p>
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		<title>By: orange.</title>
		<link>http://www.roughtheory.org/content/becoming-the-teachers-we-didnt-have/comment-page-1/#comment-354</link>
		<dc:creator>orange.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Oct 2006 10:47:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/content/becoming-the-teachers-we-didnt-have/#comment-354</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;(I suspect that everything I wrote as a first-year undergraduate read like some kind of fever-inspired CliffsNotes version of the assigned topic...). But couldn&#039;t at least one of my instructors have just mentioned this directly and clearly?&quot;&lt;/i&gt; 

Don&#039;t know about Australia but at my uni instructors that give students a detailed and honest feedback are rare. Much too rare.  
Plus, theres this silly paedagogic paradigm that forbids to articulate any kind of negative feedback in order to not discourage the students which  actually makes a number of bad loops. Students don&#039;t learn to cope with honest criticism and in consequence avoid to take classes given by the few lecturers who do point to the weaknesses of student&#039;s text directly and clearly. Concerning the former, I ve gone through classes wherein even grading itself was driven ad absurdum by every student receiving the same grade. Mean, you don&#039;t have to give grades at all this way because they just  don&#039;t express anything except the lecturers&#039; convictions in regards of education practices and  politics (which I don&#039;t share). The worst case happened when I in a class received quite positive feedback by the lecturer whom I valued highly for his intellect and later was told by fellow students he had noted that the piece of work he  earlier commented on positively actually was inacceptable. I felt betrayed because the A I received was not worth the paper it was written on.  
Another example is a case when I wrote a research proposal that was nothing than ridiculous and non-conductable and the lecturers&#039; (another  than mentioned above ) comment said, we were making &quot;good effort&quot;.  
My last-mohicaine strategy of waiting until certain  honest and truely critical professors offer classes in obligatory sections takes time that ordinary students won&#039;t be able to invest in their schooling anymore within our current education reform in Germany--even if they wanted to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;(I suspect that everything I wrote as a first-year undergraduate read like some kind of fever-inspired CliffsNotes version of the assigned topic&#8230;). But couldn&#8217;t at least one of my instructors have just mentioned this directly and clearly?&#8221;</i> </p>
<p>Don&#8217;t know about Australia but at my uni instructors that give students a detailed and honest feedback are rare. Much too rare.<br />
Plus, theres this silly paedagogic paradigm that forbids to articulate any kind of negative feedback in order to not discourage the students which  actually makes a number of bad loops. Students don&#8217;t learn to cope with honest criticism and in consequence avoid to take classes given by the few lecturers who do point to the weaknesses of student&#8217;s text directly and clearly. Concerning the former, I ve gone through classes wherein even grading itself was driven ad absurdum by every student receiving the same grade. Mean, you don&#8217;t have to give grades at all this way because they just  don&#8217;t express anything except the lecturers&#8217; convictions in regards of education practices and  politics (which I don&#8217;t share). The worst case happened when I in a class received quite positive feedback by the lecturer whom I valued highly for his intellect and later was told by fellow students he had noted that the piece of work he  earlier commented on positively actually was inacceptable. I felt betrayed because the A I received was not worth the paper it was written on.<br />
Another example is a case when I wrote a research proposal that was nothing than ridiculous and non-conductable and the lecturers&#8217; (another  than mentioned above ) comment said, we were making &#8220;good effort&#8221;.<br />
My last-mohicaine strategy of waiting until certain  honest and truely critical professors offer classes in obligatory sections takes time that ordinary students won&#8217;t be able to invest in their schooling anymore within our current education reform in Germany&#8211;even if they wanted to.</p>
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		<title>By: N Pepperell</title>
		<link>http://www.roughtheory.org/content/becoming-the-teachers-we-didnt-have/comment-page-1/#comment-331</link>
		<dc:creator>N Pepperell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Sep 2006 23:06:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/content/becoming-the-teachers-we-didnt-have/#comment-331</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s not a bad idea, the 24-hour &quot;cooling off&quot; period...  I don&#039;t suppose you have a good strategy for getting people to read the comments even when they&#039;re satisfied with their mark?  :-)  Given the repetition rate of certain errors, I suspect a good percentage of my students are flipping straight to the grade and, if they decide they can live with it, not bothering with the gemara...  ;-P</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s not a bad idea, the 24-hour &#8220;cooling off&#8221; period&#8230;  I don&#8217;t suppose you have a good strategy for getting people to read the comments even when they&#8217;re satisfied with their mark?  :-)  Given the repetition rate of certain errors, I suspect a good percentage of my students are flipping straight to the grade and, if they decide they can live with it, not bothering with the gemara&#8230;  ;-P</p>
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		<title>By: A White Bear</title>
		<link>http://www.roughtheory.org/content/becoming-the-teachers-we-didnt-have/comment-page-1/#comment-330</link>
		<dc:creator>A White Bear</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Sep 2006 10:36:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/content/becoming-the-teachers-we-didnt-have/#comment-330</guid>
		<description>I am in the same boat, NP. I find myself writing long letters to my students, sometimes longer than their assignment was, explaining some deep-level individualized response. The times I&#039;ve written the most on a student paper were times when I felt that kid was really capable of learning something very difficult within the uniquely shameful situation of having received a poor grade. Isn&#039;t that awful? And I make a rule, which I learned from some genius, that they cannot complain to me about their grade until 24 hours pass with my comments in their hands. It&#039;s far too insulting when they turn past the lovely comment I&#039;ve provided and sneer, &quot;B minus?&quot;

In teaching my lit classes, I find I&#039;m reacting against my own methods-obsessed education, which left little room for joy. I am very glad, in retrospect, that I spent so much time doing interesting research and writing quasi-theoretical papers as an undergrad, but I don&#039;t remember having much of a chance to live with those texts in harmony before eviscerating them. It may seem silly, but I like to allow for at least five minutes of &quot;What&#039;s worthwhile about this text?&quot; before we go stomping all over it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am in the same boat, NP. I find myself writing long letters to my students, sometimes longer than their assignment was, explaining some deep-level individualized response. The times I&#8217;ve written the most on a student paper were times when I felt that kid was really capable of learning something very difficult within the uniquely shameful situation of having received a poor grade. Isn&#8217;t that awful? And I make a rule, which I learned from some genius, that they cannot complain to me about their grade until 24 hours pass with my comments in their hands. It&#8217;s far too insulting when they turn past the lovely comment I&#8217;ve provided and sneer, &#8220;B minus?&#8221;</p>
<p>In teaching my lit classes, I find I&#8217;m reacting against my own methods-obsessed education, which left little room for joy. I am very glad, in retrospect, that I spent so much time doing interesting research and writing quasi-theoretical papers as an undergrad, but I don&#8217;t remember having much of a chance to live with those texts in harmony before eviscerating them. It may seem silly, but I like to allow for at least five minutes of &#8220;What&#8217;s worthwhile about this text?&#8221; before we go stomping all over it.</p>
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		<title>By: N Pepperell</title>
		<link>http://www.roughtheory.org/content/becoming-the-teachers-we-didnt-have/comment-page-1/#comment-328</link>
		<dc:creator>N Pepperell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Sep 2006 12:50:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/content/becoming-the-teachers-we-didnt-have/#comment-328</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s what I tell myself :-)  I always get a bit disturbed, though, in settings where staff are sharing examples of marked work - in comparison, my marked papers always look like I am being paid per word...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s what I tell myself :-)  I always get a bit disturbed, though, in settings where staff are sharing examples of marked work &#8211; in comparison, my marked papers always look like I am being paid per word&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: TheBizofKnowledge</title>
		<link>http://www.roughtheory.org/content/becoming-the-teachers-we-didnt-have/comment-page-1/#comment-327</link>
		<dc:creator>TheBizofKnowledge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Sep 2006 11:30:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/content/becoming-the-teachers-we-didnt-have/#comment-327</guid>
		<description>Excellent post here; it really takes me back to my own school days. You&#039;re absolutely right that teachers approach instruction with the aim of making up for inadequacies that they noticed during their own student days. From what I&#039;ve seen, this is usually a good thing.

And for what it&#039;s worth, I think students prefer too much feedback over too little. It&#039;s always nice to see teachers take a lot of time to give genuine feedback rather than generic comments like &quot;Try harder&quot; or &quot;Good job.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent post here; it really takes me back to my own school days. You&#8217;re absolutely right that teachers approach instruction with the aim of making up for inadequacies that they noticed during their own student days. From what I&#8217;ve seen, this is usually a good thing.</p>
<p>And for what it&#8217;s worth, I think students prefer too much feedback over too little. It&#8217;s always nice to see teachers take a lot of time to give genuine feedback rather than generic comments like &#8220;Try harder&#8221; or &#8220;Good job.&#8221;</p>
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