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	<title>Comments on: The Inverted World</title>
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	<description>theory in the rough</description>
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		<title>By: N Pepperell</title>
		<link>http://www.roughtheory.org/content/the-inverted-world/comment-page-1/#comment-68327</link>
		<dc:creator>N Pepperell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 02:48:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/?p=839#comment-68327</guid>
		<description>Hey Nate - These references would be really useful - I&#039;ll have some time (hopefully...) to get back to some of this stuff in earnest over the term break in a couple of weeks.  One of my major difficulties is that, since I have a total absence of background in any sort of, say, literary theory, I have just... no vocabulary when I try to write on this sort of thing - or, I have a vocabulary, but I have no idea whether other people might have a better one, or might mean something different by the terms I happen to have purposed in this way...  So I&#039;ve been wanting to turn at least to other people who have explored Marx with close attention to the voicing and &quot;plot&quot; of the text - to look at how they write, as much as what they see...

There&#039;s a book by Kemple called &lt;a href=&quot;http://books.google.com.au/books?id=Z63PgY7W1lkC&amp;printsec=toc&amp;dq=reading+marx+writing&amp;source=gbs_summary_s&amp;cad=0&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;Reading Marx Writing&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt; which...  I need to read more carefully (I&#039;ve just flipped through it).  From a super-quick glance, it seems, strangely, not to take its own attention to Marx&#039;s text seriously enough, in a way?  To act as though elements that I take to be plot points, are sort of... inadvertant intrusions?  So it seems to tease out interesting things, but still to operate from more assumptions than I carried in - originally - about what Marx &quot;ought&quot; to be arguing, so that those assumptions end up serving as a sort of external normative standpoint from which it become possible to adjudicate what was accidental and nonaccidental in Marx&#039;s text?  It protects itself by saying it&#039;s not attempting to work out what Marx &quot;meant&quot; - but, in a way, there seems to be a very strong sense operating in the background of what Marx could possibly &quot;mean&quot;, so that it then ends up sort of not being &lt;em&gt;possible&lt;/em&gt; for him to &quot;mean&quot; what his text &lt;em&gt;does&lt;/em&gt;?

But I&#039;m almost certainly being enormously unfair to Kemple - I shouldn&#039;t write on anyone I&#039;ve read so superficially...  Sorry...  I have a cold at the moment, and most of my better sense has drained away as it&#039;s clouded my thoughts :-)

What I meant to say, before I decided I needed to cast aspersions on something I&#039;ve barely read, was that I would really welcome references on this...

Take care...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Nate &#8211; These references would be really useful &#8211; I&#8217;ll have some time (hopefully&#8230;) to get back to some of this stuff in earnest over the term break in a couple of weeks.  One of my major difficulties is that, since I have a total absence of background in any sort of, say, literary theory, I have just&#8230; no vocabulary when I try to write on this sort of thing &#8211; or, I have a vocabulary, but I have no idea whether other people might have a better one, or might mean something different by the terms I happen to have purposed in this way&#8230;  So I&#8217;ve been wanting to turn at least to other people who have explored Marx with close attention to the voicing and &#8220;plot&#8221; of the text &#8211; to look at how they write, as much as what they see&#8230;</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a book by Kemple called <a href="http://books.google.com.au/books?id=Z63PgY7W1lkC&#038;printsec=toc&#038;dq=reading+marx+writing&#038;source=gbs_summary_s&#038;cad=0" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><em>Reading Marx Writing</em></a> which&#8230;  I need to read more carefully (I&#8217;ve just flipped through it).  From a super-quick glance, it seems, strangely, not to take its own attention to Marx&#8217;s text seriously enough, in a way?  To act as though elements that I take to be plot points, are sort of&#8230; inadvertant intrusions?  So it seems to tease out interesting things, but still to operate from more assumptions than I carried in &#8211; originally &#8211; about what Marx &#8220;ought&#8221; to be arguing, so that those assumptions end up serving as a sort of external normative standpoint from which it become possible to adjudicate what was accidental and nonaccidental in Marx&#8217;s text?  It protects itself by saying it&#8217;s not attempting to work out what Marx &#8220;meant&#8221; &#8211; but, in a way, there seems to be a very strong sense operating in the background of what Marx could possibly &#8220;mean&#8221;, so that it then ends up sort of not being <em>possible</em> for him to &#8220;mean&#8221; what his text <em>does</em>?</p>
<p>But I&#8217;m almost certainly being enormously unfair to Kemple &#8211; I shouldn&#8217;t write on anyone I&#8217;ve read so superficially&#8230;  Sorry&#8230;  I have a cold at the moment, and most of my better sense has drained away as it&#8217;s clouded my thoughts :-)</p>
<p>What I meant to say, before I decided I needed to cast aspersions on something I&#8217;ve barely read, was that I would really welcome references on this&#8230;</p>
<p>Take care&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Nate</title>
		<link>http://www.roughtheory.org/content/the-inverted-world/comment-page-1/#comment-68128</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 17:56:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/?p=839#comment-68128</guid>
		<description>hey there!
So I&#039;ve not even really skimmed this, just sort of glanced at it (I feel like I owe you about 50 pages of reply content!), but two things jumped out at me (stating them now in part in hope that I remember to come back to this when I start typing up those 50 or so owed pages).
One - I like your phrase &quot;dramatic structure of the first volume of Capital&quot;. There&#039;s a short essay by Umberto Eco about Marx&#039;s literary style, I forget where but if you remind me I can find it, may be useful. It&#039;s mostly a review of a book in Spanish that&#039;s not been translated, I think. Also, Ranciere comments on Marx&#039;s style in The Philosopher and His Poor. May be useful points of comparison? May not be, but I&#039;d be keen to see what you make of both, for selfish reasons. :)
Two - on comparison with MArx&#039;s journalistic works, Sergio Bologna has an essay on Marx&#039;s journalism, I think it&#039;s called Marx and money. I&#039;m away from home now but if you like I can find the reference, I&#039;m pretty sure I have an e-copy somewhere (and I&#039;m pretty sure but only pretty sure that I&#039;ve read it). Let me know. Ditto my remark that this might be useful to you but that your response would _definitely_ be interesting to me. 
gotta run
take care
nate</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hey there!<br />
So I&#8217;ve not even really skimmed this, just sort of glanced at it (I feel like I owe you about 50 pages of reply content!), but two things jumped out at me (stating them now in part in hope that I remember to come back to this when I start typing up those 50 or so owed pages).<br />
One &#8211; I like your phrase &#8220;dramatic structure of the first volume of Capital&#8221;. There&#8217;s a short essay by Umberto Eco about Marx&#8217;s literary style, I forget where but if you remind me I can find it, may be useful. It&#8217;s mostly a review of a book in Spanish that&#8217;s not been translated, I think. Also, Ranciere comments on Marx&#8217;s style in The Philosopher and His Poor. May be useful points of comparison? May not be, but I&#8217;d be keen to see what you make of both, for selfish reasons. :)<br />
Two &#8211; on comparison with MArx&#8217;s journalistic works, Sergio Bologna has an essay on Marx&#8217;s journalism, I think it&#8217;s called Marx and money. I&#8217;m away from home now but if you like I can find the reference, I&#8217;m pretty sure I have an e-copy somewhere (and I&#8217;m pretty sure but only pretty sure that I&#8217;ve read it). Let me know. Ditto my remark that this might be useful to you but that your response would _definitely_ be interesting to me.<br />
gotta run<br />
take care<br />
nate</p>
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		<title>By: N Pepperell</title>
		<link>http://www.roughtheory.org/content/the-inverted-world/comment-page-1/#comment-68114</link>
		<dc:creator>N Pepperell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 13:11:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/?p=839#comment-68114</guid>
		<description>lol!  Yes :-)  I occasionally make the mistake of taking something... much longer... as bedtime reading...  My bed stand is littered with attempts that proved... much too thick... :-)  Periodically I gather these and repopulate my bookshelves with them...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>lol!  Yes :-)  I occasionally make the mistake of taking something&#8230; much longer&#8230; as bedtime reading&#8230;  My bed stand is littered with attempts that proved&#8230; much too thick&#8230; :-)  Periodically I gather these and repopulate my bookshelves with them&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Chuckie K</title>
		<link>http://www.roughtheory.org/content/the-inverted-world/comment-page-1/#comment-68113</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuckie K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 13:05:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/?p=839#comment-68113</guid>
		<description>I appreciate the delay. I am blurting interstitially myself. In the little pauses when the difference between selling your labor-power and selling your labor is very clear. 

Whihc is why I managed not allude to the opening of the post, bedtime reading, I&#039;m plugging Marx&#039; journalism, and letters for that matter, as bedtime reading. They&#039;re short!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I appreciate the delay. I am blurting interstitially myself. In the little pauses when the difference between selling your labor-power and selling your labor is very clear. </p>
<p>Whihc is why I managed not allude to the opening of the post, bedtime reading, I&#8217;m plugging Marx&#8217; journalism, and letters for that matter, as bedtime reading. They&#8217;re short!</p>
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		<title>By: N Pepperell</title>
		<link>http://www.roughtheory.org/content/the-inverted-world/comment-page-1/#comment-68040</link>
		<dc:creator>N Pepperell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 04:25:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/?p=839#comment-68040</guid>
		<description>Hey there - apologies for the gap in responding, and for the short response now - very intensive work at the moment, so not much time online...  But yes.  One of the things that interests me about the argument in &lt;em&gt;Capital&lt;/em&gt; is what I take to be its sustained attempt to demonstrate that a number of things that are often &lt;em&gt;taken&lt;/em&gt; to be &quot;impractical&quot; - categories that seem like purely &quot;ideal&quot; creations, conceptual generalisations, abstractions &lt;em&gt;from&lt;/em&gt; social experience - are instead &quot;practical truths&quot; - abstractions &lt;em&gt;within&lt;/em&gt; social experience - &quot;real abstractions&quot;, generated (if often unintentionally) by determinate forms of collective action.  This objective of the work - or, what I take to be the objective of the work - can often get lost, making the discussion seem vastly more distanced from practical concerns than I generally hear it as being...

Apologies for the slightly tangential blurt...  Long day...  :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey there &#8211; apologies for the gap in responding, and for the short response now &#8211; very intensive work at the moment, so not much time online&#8230;  But yes.  One of the things that interests me about the argument in <em>Capital</em> is what I take to be its sustained attempt to demonstrate that a number of things that are often <em>taken</em> to be &#8220;impractical&#8221; &#8211; categories that seem like purely &#8220;ideal&#8221; creations, conceptual generalisations, abstractions <em>from</em> social experience &#8211; are instead &#8220;practical truths&#8221; &#8211; abstractions <em>within</em> social experience &#8211; &#8220;real abstractions&#8221;, generated (if often unintentionally) by determinate forms of collective action.  This objective of the work &#8211; or, what I take to be the objective of the work &#8211; can often get lost, making the discussion seem vastly more distanced from practical concerns than I generally hear it as being&#8230;</p>
<p>Apologies for the slightly tangential blurt&#8230;  Long day&#8230;  :-)</p>
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		<title>By: Chuckie K</title>
		<link>http://www.roughtheory.org/content/the-inverted-world/comment-page-1/#comment-67911</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuckie K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 17:24:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/?p=839#comment-67911</guid>
		<description>&quot;much more direct way&quot; - Yes, in this instance, I&#039;d incline to saying that in the Wage Price and Profit passages Marx exemplifies &#039;interpretation&#039; of notions from Capital.  

I don&#039;t mean to suggest a systematic investigation correlating theory and journalism. I just like to keep the corresponding volumes of the blue books and the red books on hand because it keeps the practical Marx in mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;much more direct way&#8221; &#8211; Yes, in this instance, I&#8217;d incline to saying that in the Wage Price and Profit passages Marx exemplifies &#8216;interpretation&#8217; of notions from Capital.  </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t mean to suggest a systematic investigation correlating theory and journalism. I just like to keep the corresponding volumes of the blue books and the red books on hand because it keeps the practical Marx in mind.</p>
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		<title>By: N Pepperell</title>
		<link>http://www.roughtheory.org/content/the-inverted-world/comment-page-1/#comment-67898</link>
		<dc:creator>N Pepperell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 15:37:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/?p=839#comment-67898</guid>
		<description>Thanks for this :-)  My sense isn&#039;t so much that the folks engaged in the debates over the logical/historical issue, are trying to depoliticise the text - I think the various positions in that debate are all fighting for what they see as particular sorts of political stakes (in other words, I&#039;m trying not to let what might be a poor expression on my part, distort what&#039;s happening in these other debates).  

It&#039;s just that there is a vast debate over concepts like &quot;real subsumption&quot; - over whether this is meant to describe some sort of one-off historical shift, or to mark out a logical distinction - and related debates over whether the developments traced out in the opening chapter of &lt;em&gt;Capital&lt;/em&gt; are intended to mark out some sort of early historical moment that has been surpassed, or some sort of ideal type of commodity production, or else some sort of logical distinction, etc.  

And there&#039;s something about these debates, to me, that is... (and I&#039;m not expressing this well, apologies) just somehow... at a skew to the concerns that I think are driving the distinctions and dramatic pivots of the text.  This is what I was trying to capture by saying that I felt the distinction Marx was after was a &quot;political&quot; one - not so much trying to suggest that other readings &lt;em&gt;aren&#039;t&lt;/em&gt; engaging with the text as a political text - more suggesting that there is a much more direct way that I see Marx to be commenting on forms of political organisation and ideals in these particular moments in the text?  Although even this language probably isn&#039;t hitting what I&#039;m after - the &quot;real subsumption&quot; discussion generally does pivot around arguments over forms of organisation and political ideals...  So I&#039;ll need a better way to express what I&#039;m after... eventually...  :-)  I tend to blurt things first - sometimes it&#039;s only once I&#039;ve tossed it out that I can work out what&#039;s worrying me, and then how to say it...

I haven&#039;t done work to line up the theoretical and the journalistic - I&#039;ve been engaged in a sort of insane textual wrestle with &lt;em&gt;Capital&lt;/em&gt;, such that I read other things by Marx almost for relaxation - for the moment, at least, I&#039;m trying to avoid turning his other writings into work as well :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for this :-)  My sense isn&#8217;t so much that the folks engaged in the debates over the logical/historical issue, are trying to depoliticise the text &#8211; I think the various positions in that debate are all fighting for what they see as particular sorts of political stakes (in other words, I&#8217;m trying not to let what might be a poor expression on my part, distort what&#8217;s happening in these other debates).  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s just that there is a vast debate over concepts like &#8220;real subsumption&#8221; &#8211; over whether this is meant to describe some sort of one-off historical shift, or to mark out a logical distinction &#8211; and related debates over whether the developments traced out in the opening chapter of <em>Capital</em> are intended to mark out some sort of early historical moment that has been surpassed, or some sort of ideal type of commodity production, or else some sort of logical distinction, etc.  </p>
<p>And there&#8217;s something about these debates, to me, that is&#8230; (and I&#8217;m not expressing this well, apologies) just somehow&#8230; at a skew to the concerns that I think are driving the distinctions and dramatic pivots of the text.  This is what I was trying to capture by saying that I felt the distinction Marx was after was a &#8220;political&#8221; one &#8211; not so much trying to suggest that other readings <em>aren&#8217;t</em> engaging with the text as a political text &#8211; more suggesting that there is a much more direct way that I see Marx to be commenting on forms of political organisation and ideals in these particular moments in the text?  Although even this language probably isn&#8217;t hitting what I&#8217;m after &#8211; the &#8220;real subsumption&#8221; discussion generally does pivot around arguments over forms of organisation and political ideals&#8230;  So I&#8217;ll need a better way to express what I&#8217;m after&#8230; eventually&#8230;  :-)  I tend to blurt things first &#8211; sometimes it&#8217;s only once I&#8217;ve tossed it out that I can work out what&#8217;s worrying me, and then how to say it&#8230;</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t done work to line up the theoretical and the journalistic &#8211; I&#8217;ve been engaged in a sort of insane textual wrestle with <em>Capital</em>, such that I read other things by Marx almost for relaxation &#8211; for the moment, at least, I&#8217;m trying to avoid turning his other writings into work as well :-)</p>
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		<title>By: Chuckie K</title>
		<link>http://www.roughtheory.org/content/the-inverted-world/comment-page-1/#comment-67892</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuckie K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 15:03:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/?p=839#comment-67892</guid>
		<description>Goodness, you are perfectly clear. I would take it for granted that Marx is writing politically. From my corner, it wouldn&#039;t be the text that lends itself to the apolitical reading, it would be the readers. And I&#039;m just thinking what considerations I might want to adduce if I had to persuade with such readers that the political reading should be the default in approaching Marx.

Speaking of the blunt, bald Marx, do you every line up the more theoretical with the journalistic?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Goodness, you are perfectly clear. I would take it for granted that Marx is writing politically. From my corner, it wouldn&#8217;t be the text that lends itself to the apolitical reading, it would be the readers. And I&#8217;m just thinking what considerations I might want to adduce if I had to persuade with such readers that the political reading should be the default in approaching Marx.</p>
<p>Speaking of the blunt, bald Marx, do you every line up the more theoretical with the journalistic?</p>
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		<title>By: N Pepperell</title>
		<link>http://www.roughtheory.org/content/the-inverted-world/comment-page-1/#comment-67889</link>
		<dc:creator>N Pepperell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 13:52:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/?p=839#comment-67889</guid>
		<description>Yes - sorry:  I should have been clearer in what I was writing above (wrote this in a quick blurt, since I was dodging other work to do it) - the &quot;Value, Price and Profit&quot; text, because it&#039;s a direct political intervention, is much more explicit about the political stake of this debate.  It&#039;s the first volume of &lt;em&gt;Capital&lt;/em&gt; that seems to lend itself to asking whether Marx is trying to make an &quot;historical&quot; or &quot;logical&quot; distinction - so I was hoping to suggest, by drawing out the parallel between &lt;em&gt;Capital&lt;/em&gt; and the other text, that there was another option...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes &#8211; sorry:  I should have been clearer in what I was writing above (wrote this in a quick blurt, since I was dodging other work to do it) &#8211; the &#8220;Value, Price and Profit&#8221; text, because it&#8217;s a direct political intervention, is much more explicit about the political stake of this debate.  It&#8217;s the first volume of <em>Capital</em> that seems to lend itself to asking whether Marx is trying to make an &#8220;historical&#8221; or &#8220;logical&#8221; distinction &#8211; so I was hoping to suggest, by drawing out the parallel between <em>Capital</em> and the other text, that there was another option&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Chuckie K</title>
		<link>http://www.roughtheory.org/content/the-inverted-world/comment-page-1/#comment-67887</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuckie K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 13:11:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/?p=839#comment-67887</guid>
		<description>Not that this point has much relevance to your point here, but perhaps in support of the &#039;political.&#039; The quotes from Value, Price and Profit, specially the conclusion nailed down as Firstly, Secondly, Thirdly directly address LaSallean positions, don&#039;t they? The rejection of union organizing as a consequence of the Iron Law of Wages. Secondly agrees with one of Lasalle&#039;s premises, but Firstly and Thirdly reject two others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not that this point has much relevance to your point here, but perhaps in support of the &#8216;political.&#8217; The quotes from Value, Price and Profit, specially the conclusion nailed down as Firstly, Secondly, Thirdly directly address LaSallean positions, don&#8217;t they? The rejection of union organizing as a consequence of the Iron Law of Wages. Secondly agrees with one of Lasalle&#8217;s premises, but Firstly and Thirdly reject two others.</p>
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